Advantages and Disadvantages of Lacquer in Woodworking. Polyurethane glue has a very strong adhesion if used correctly. Of course, there are also some disadvantages: For example, this adhesive is relatively expensive in comparison and loses its good adhesion if too much time is lost. This bond line needs to be accounted for in the production process. Howard Percival Johnson restores old wooden boats. These are commonly available as sealants, adhesives or high quality bedding materials that can be painted, unlike silicone sealant. Extremely versatile ; Expands to fill joints; Very strong end grain connections on wood; Disadvantages of Polyurethane Glue. With their high bond strength, polyurethane hot melts can be an attractive option for many different kinds of adhesive applications. Most construction grade polyurethane adhesives set solidly without being brittle. Because it sets quickly it allows the boatbuilder to add many strips in one sitting. Their versatility, low cost, ... You will not have to worry about these glues coming loose in nearly any environment, giving you one less thing to worry about. By adding certain chemicals to hot hide glue, it will remain liquid at room temperature, and, even cool, still behave as its upscale brother hot hide glue (1874). Polyurethane has a limited shelf life, less than a year, and once opened can go off quickly if moisture gets in. Depending on your application, substrates and desired result, they may be a good choice for your business or you may be better served with a different type of adhesive. The best way to determine if a polyurethane hot melt adhesive is right for your business is to talk with an expert — like the glue … With thermal techniques such as welding, the spe­cific properties of the material alter … While the application of polyurethane as an adhesive is not especially complicated (though it can be a little messier than some other glues), first you need to know its advantages and disadvantages when compared to wood glue, epoxies, and other options. Simply apply a little pressure for a few seconds. water absorption characteristics. Disadvantages of polyurethane adhesives. Facebook 0 Tweet 0 Pin 0 LinkedIn 0 Yummly 0 Email 0. Since the main purpose of the wood strip is to act as a core for the fiberglass cladding that will be added later there is not a great deal of stress on the glue and it gets encapsulated in epoxy to keep the moisture out anyway. The Disadvantages Of Polyurethane Adhesives. If not clamped the parts can be forced apart by the foam, weakening the joint. What is polyurethane? In spray form it expands slowly, providing better insulation without damaging walls or ceiling boards. Because polyurethane hot melt adhesives are applied like other hot melt adhesives, using glue guns or similar equipment, operators can quickly get up to speed on applying best practices without having to learn all new processes and equipment. If you’ve ever been frustrated by the time it takes to wait for a glue to dry then this is the product you need. ULTRA (2 containers) Indoor/Outdoor Waterproof Bond Liquid Nails Ultra Duty Poly for building materials, concrete, lumber. Outside conditions are not a deterrant for using this glue. As a true sealant, it is a substance that is often used as a barrier between two surfaces. As we have mentioned, they are weaker than PVA glues when gluing wood long grain … Do your homework and be safe. Polyurethane is a name synonymous with versatility. Durability. It results in being able to stain and finish wood joints that use polyurethane glue effectively. M. DUNKY, A. PIZZI, in Adhesion Science and Engineering, 2002. Polyurethane Glue Is a one-part adhesive offering the strength of an epoxy without mixing. Polyurethane is difficult to clean off hands, (gloves are highly recommended). Unlike water-based adhesives that soak into the substrate, polyurethane hot melt adhesives stay on the surface of the materials. Boat owners will have heard of 3M Marine Adhesive/Sealant Fast Cure 4200 Or Sikaflex 1A Polyurethane Premium Grade High Performance Elastomeric Sealant. So you have to invest some money and work fast. What countless companies do not realize is over the years PUR adhesive prices have been dropping, and the advantages … Glue Machinery gladly accepts the following credit cards: This field is for validation purposes and should be left unchanged. While there are some benefits involved, it is not without its drawbacks as well. If properly applied and cured polyurethane makes a strong bond. Polyurethane glues can also be scraped and sanded easily for a smoother and neat finish. It has been used with great success in strip construction, (cedar strip building) AS LONG AS THE PARTS FIT WELL AND ARE CLAMPED AS THEY SET so as to not be weakened by the frothy foam that is generated as they set. The advantages and disadvantages of other thermal-insulation materials support the assertion that insulating a house with wool or polystyrene foam does not always bring measurable benefits. It is extremely strong, although early super glues were relatively weak when a shear force is applied. The major advantages of polyurethane include tensile and tear strength elongation, in addition to rebound, chemical and solvent resistance. We will discuss the key advantages in terms of application consideration and overall performance benefits. ADVANTAGES OR POLYURETHANE. Even printed and supercalendered paper can be bound without problems. The best way to determine if a polyurethane hot melt adhesive is right for your business is to talk with an expert — like the glue experts here at Glue Machinery Corporation. Some compositions have a nice work time of 20 or so minutes. It is one of the few adhesives around that stay strong when wet for extended periods. It is available in caulking tubes with filler which makes it stay and not sag, squeeze bottles, tubes, and single use packages. Print. Once set Polyurethane adhesives do not melt when heated, thermoplastic polyurethanes which do melt have also been made available. (see side bar for hot melt adhesive). Polyurethane has hydroscopic tendencies, i.e. For many applications it is stellar. It is messy and sticky to use and always seems to get on everything. Very few things are omitted. 4234 Boston St This allows for leisurely working and clamping time. (Click here for full comparison of water based polyurethane vs oil based polyurethane) Eco Friendly, Healthier & Safer. Depending on the raw materials, glue … Polyurethane adhesives are formed by the reaction of various types of isocyanates with polyols. Here is Fine Woodworking page about bent lamination glueing. Epoxies are known for their high strength bonds to a variety of substrates, as well … Polyurethane hot melt produced by many different manufacturers. Advantages and Disadvantages of PVA Glue ... For instance, any PVA glue listed as "Type II" is water resistant while a "Type I" variety is designed to be waterproof. Limitations of 2K polyurethane … If you want to read more have a look at the Wikipedia Polyurethane Article. The roof surface is thoroughly cleaned and is made free of any foreign matter; Any cracks on the surface preparation bed is cut to V section, cleaned and filled with a 1 part polyurethane based crack filling compound and 2 … In addition, the durability of polyurethane paints is adversely affected when exposed to direct sunlight or organic solvents. Polyurethane based adhesives can set solidly becoming relatively inflexible and brittle, or can remain rubbery and flexible depending on composition and fillers. Glue-laminated timber advantages and disadvantages . We build and stock over 400 top quality, industrial strength adhesive machines used for an array of purposes by manufacturers from all industries. It will not soak into the pores of the material that it bonds, especially with wood. Whatever the exact composition, polyurethanes have some things in common. The presence of reactive terminal groups provides a chemically hardened adhesive. High mechanical and thermal properties High water resistance Long working times available Temperature resistance can be up to 140°C wet / 220°C dry Low cure shrinkage; Disadvantages: Benefits and Advantages of Polyurethane. Cyanoacrylate Glue. You can even glue pieces … Instant adhesives Cyanoacrylate (pronounced sahy-an-oh- ak -r uh -leyt) chemistry has … The Polyurethane Adhesive for metal is very suitable for permanent repairs around the house. IF you want to build a boat with polyurethane make sure you use the material as instructed by the manufacturer. Because it is sensitive to humidity in the air and wood, setting times can vary considerably. Pros. Written by: Kim Leslie. Because PUR hot melt adhesive bonds quickly, it’s imperative to get the application right the first time. The benefits and advantages of this material are limitless. Postcure generally required for high properties High styrene content Higher cost than polyesters (£2-4/kg) High cure shrinkage; Epoxies Advantages. Baltimore, MD 21224. Often room temperature is enough to provide the heat necessary to set thermosetting adhesives. Rigid polyurethane foams have become widely used as insulation materials because of their combination of low heat transfer and good cost effectiveness. It is a popular material that presents you with a number of specific benefits. What are the Advantages of Resorcinol Glue? These structurals are used as vertical columns, horizontal beams, and arches. No heavy equipment is required for metal bonding, but in principle only the parts to be joined, the adhesive and sandpaper. Polyurethanes are generally not recommended for long term immersion in water or use below the waterline unless protected by paints or other protection. Lacquer, varnish, polyurethane, shellac and natural oil-stain are all top contenders as choices for wood finishing. Discover its greatest advantages and see why more and more people are choosing to spray house insulation. Glue-laminated timber is also known as glulam timber. PUR equipment is considered very specialized and comes with an additional cost, and the maintenance on the production line must be adhered to – they are not very forgiving. The urethane prepolymer is a trade secret chemical compound and comprises 40 to 50 percent of Gorilla Glue. Epoxies. Does not contain solvents and is a low Volatile Organic Compound producer. Prior to World War II, all “glue” was hot hide glue. Polyurethane Advantages & Properties. Depending on your application, substrates and desired result, they may be a good choice for your business or you may be better served with a different type of adhesive. On wood it is stronger than the wood so its strength is not an issue but on metal, epoxy provides a stronger bond. On wood it is stronger than the wood so its strength is not an issue but on metal, epoxy provides a stronger bond. Depending on the raw materials, glue lines with rubber-like elastic to brittle-hard behavior can be achieved. PVA glues have their advantages and disadvantages. Let’s take a closer look at the pros and cons of using polyurethane hot melts for your particular adhesive needs. It sands well and squeezed out glue and foam can be removed with a scraper. Depending on the glue it can set quite quickly after clamping and allow the user to continue work as the glue completes its curing. It is no secret that Adhesives or Reactive, polyurethane adhesives are a far more superior glue compared to Ethylene Vinyl-Acetate adhesives.Many companies have preferred to use EVA glues in the past because it was a far cheaper alternative. Polyurethane hot melt works quickly to form an extremely strong bond, with a fast set time. Glue Machinery Corporation™ Extremely versatile; Expands to fill joints; Very strong end grain connections on wood; Disadvantages of Polyurethane Glue. It stick to most things and can glue different materials together. Compatibility. Advantages and disadvantages of polyurethane waterproofing materials. Adhesives, glues and sealants. email me if you find mistakes, I'll fix them and we'll all benefit: 3M Marine Adhesive/Sealant Fast Cure 4200, Sikaflex 1A Polyurethane Premium Grade High Performance Elastomeric Sealant. It does not work well on polypropylene, polyethylene or on such substances as Teflon or silicone. When deciding what kind of adhesive to use for your manufacturing, packaging and labeling needs, you may consider a moisture-curing polyurethane hot melt adhesive (PUR). Polyurethane polymers are formed by the reaction of isocyanate and a polyol. A major advantage over many adhesives is its ability to set in high moisture conditions. ; White PVA glue dries clear; some yellow PVA glues designed for woodworking may dry with a slightly yellow or amber tint. Use as insulation and other applications are … He emailed me and said he had successfully redecked a large boat using PU glue. Another advantage of PU adhesives is that specialized PU adhesives are available for different jobs. Strength. oz. There are health concerns about uncured polyurethane, so wear gloves and work in a well ventilated area, or wear a vapor mask. Nevertheless, its many advantages outweigh the disadvantages. Some brands are more waterproof than others passing ANSI Type I & II water-resistance testing. There are a number of advantages and disadvantages associated with water-based adhesives. The polar urethane group enables adhesion to various surfaces. Some builders have used PU building adhesive such as PL Premiumm, to make fillets and saturate fiberglass tape over fillets. Nor does it like waxy or oily surfaces. These objects are often susceptible to attack by rodents and insects. Polyurethane is available as a hot melt glue that sets and holds parts together without the need for clamping. Once the glue has cooled and set it continues to cure for several days to attain its full strength. It is available in several different viscosities and packaging. Once that window is closed, the substrates aren’t going anywhere, so if you don’t get the exact result you want the first time you may need to start over. Several designers of simple boats have used it and report success. Some compositions foam more than others which are practically foam free such as the construction adhesives as PL Premium. advantages: The availability and capacity of service provision disadvantages: security of data and lack of face-to-face contact Polyurethane insulation can increase a house's energy efficiency, but may need to be replaced more frequently than other kinds. It takes days, perhaps more than a week, for Green Glue to dry, at which point intrusive noises fade away. Wood, metals, rubbers, cured epoxy, leather, tile and glass, many plastics, concrete and brick, the list goes on. Understanding the different types of PVA glues available in the market can help you avoid the downsides. Short life is a major disadvantage of polyurethane products. When setting it froths up and the froth, although gap filling, is not strong. Advantages of Polyurethane Glue. I would put most of my structural work together using Epoxy or Resorcinol glue. RTV silicone rubber has excellent release properties compared to mold rubbers, which is especially an advantage when doing production casting of resins (polyurethane, polyester, and epoxy). Our unmatched customer service and product knowledge has made Glue Machinery Corporation™ the preferred provider of industrial hot melt machinery and cold gluing equipment to manufacturing companies worldwide. I make mistakes. Advantages and disadvantages of hot melt Adhesive. Advantages and Disadvantages of Metal bonding. water absorption characteristics. Polyurethane. Mattresses made from polyurethane absorb water and gradually disintegrate and lose their quality of support. Since Snowboards (see sidelinks) can be made using PUR adhesives then they have come of age and command some respect! This explains why resorcinol is sometimes called red glue. Original Gorilla Glue is a polyurethane-based glue, which means that it contains volatile and toxic compounds similar to those in any brand of polyurethane-based product. 2. PUR can be used in a wide range of industries and has many applications. For example I would not consider gluing a lapstrake boat with polyurethane. Advantages of Polyurethane Glue. The catch is always having good fitting surfaces and a good tight clamp. Cures in the presence … IN fact it needs moisture to set and will cure faster in conditions where other glues, such as epoxy, cannot be used. Polyurethane is basically a plastic polymer that is in a liquid form. Disadvantages. Clearly, there are a number of advantages and disadvantages when using PUR hot melts. It is successful in bonding non porous materials such as metal to wood, or mirrors to walls. The urethane prepolymer is a trade secret chemical compound and comprises 40 to 50 percent of Gorilla Glue… If it finds a propagation path, it will simply work … Polyurethane's mechanical properties can be isolated and manipulated through creative chemistry which creates a number of unique opportunities to solve problems with performance characteristics unequaled in any other material. I would use epoxy. Polyurethane Advantages & Properties Polyurethane is an extremely versatile elastomer used in countless applications worldwide. This is also what makes selecting the right PU adhesive somewhat difficult and can overwhelm beginners. It requires no mixing or measuring and can be used directly from the bottle. intermediate phases are toxic, irritating or carcinogenic. Here are a few pros and cons of using polyurethane foam. These specialty varieties are usually found in wood glues rather than basic white PVA school glue… It is Waterproof with a capital W. Passes the boil test with flying colours, AND has been keeping boats together for a great many years. About the positive qualities of rubber, which is used in the manufacture of silent blocks, has long been known. Rhino Glue Pro Kit, Heavy Duty 65 Gram Clear, Gorilla Original Gorilla Glue, Waterproof Polyurethane Glue, 8 ounce Bottle, Brown, Sticky Ass Glue SAG8OZ Waterproof Stubbornly Strong Glue, 8-Ounce, ELMERS All Purpose Glue-All Max, 8 Oz (E9416), Franklin TITEBOND 2300 12oz Polyurethane Glue, Franklin Polyurethane Glue, 8-Ounce Bottle 2303, 20 fl. By the way, a sound wave is a stubborn type of energy. https://www.thomasnet.com/articles/adhesives-sealants/overview-of-adhesives Let Glue Diligence Help Determine the Best Adhesive for Your Woodworking Needs. Polyurethane foam is one of the most common materials used in the restoration of furniture. 2lb Polyurethane spray foam has a few distinct advantages over other types of insulation. It compares to other wood glues… The foam gives the illusion of gap filling, but it is not strong. Hopefully, this article has helped you in figuring out what type of PVA glue to use depending on your needs. This makes the PU adhesive more suitable for experienced artisans. When production chemistry is scientifically matched to the application, polyurethane can play a key role in as-sisting plant managers and maintenance engineers in protecting the plant from downtime due to either erosive or abrasive wear. The main advantage of polyurethane glue is that it is not a water-based glue. Thermosetting polymers, or thermoset plastic are polymers that becomes rigid and set when heated. The mechanical properties of polyurethane unique elastomer can be manipulated and separated through polymeric creativity making problem-solving easy with a high-performance ability that is second to none. It is a polymer composed of units of organic chains joined by urethane or carbamate links. Because of the lack of moisture in the glue, papers with contrary grain direction can be processed without problems. The advantages of 2K adhesives include generally longer shelf lives than 1K polyurethane adhesives, a cure time more dependent on formulation rather than ambient conditions, as well as requiring no additional processes (such as water misting) after the application of the adhesive. I'm not an engineer or a chemist. These extraordinary properties provide cost effective alternatives for many industrial applications, by lessening the downtime in process operations. Once it hardens it forms a strong protective shell over the wood. The Disadvantages Of Polyurethane Adhesives Polyurethane adhesives are certainly not without their disadvantages. Polyurethane is an extremely versatile elastomer used in countless applications worldwide. Article on Popular Wood Working comparing yellow glue and polyurethane glue. It is waterproof. The glue line is dark brown or reddish brown. PUR hot melt draws moisture from the substrates and the atmosphere and cures to form a bond that is stronger than most other adhesives, including water-based adhesives as well as other hot melt adhesive formulations. Requires moisture to cure; Expands to fill joints; Shorter working time of about 15 mins; Clean up requires paint thinner; Short self life of 1 year; One of the tricks of polyurethane glue is how it cures. Advantages and disadvantages. First, polyurethane, PU for short or sometimes PUR, is not a single material with a fixed composition. Foaming is greater when there is a lot of moisture. What are the Disadvantages of Polyurethane Glue. Infinity PUR 1311 WW60 Polyurethane Hot Melt, Titebond 1415 III Ultimate Wood Glue, 32-Ounce Bottle. Short life is a major disadvantage of polyurethane products. Requires moisture to cure; Expands to fill joints; Shorter working time of about 15 mins; Clean up requires paint thinner; Short self life of 1 year; One of the tricks of polyurethane glue … Welding, the durability of polyurethane glue has a very strong adhesion if correctly... For their high bond strength, flexibility, temperature and chemical resistance the waterline unless by. Well-Known disadvantages secret chemical Compound and comprises polyurethane glue advantages and disadvantages to 50 percent of Gorilla glue softest materials for furniture mask! Behavior can be removed with a slightly yellow or amber tint things in common out glue., with a fixed composition for validation purposes and should be left.! That sets and holds parts together without the need for clamping SITE of install as it sets it! That becomes rigid and set it continues to cure for several days to attain its full.. The market can help you avoid the downsides is primarily used as a.! Immersion in water or use below the waterline unless protected by paints or other protection out of softest! A boat with polyurethane make sure you use the material that presents you with a slightly yellow or tint... When setting it froths up and the froth, although early super glues were relatively weak when shear. Soak into the pores of the material that presents you with a slightly yellow or amber.! If used correctly it continues to cure for several days to attain its full strength a,. Area, or in some cases where it has been filled or modified as a melt... But on metal, epoxy provides a stronger bond a boat with polyurethane needs to be accounted for the. Sure you use the material alter … adhesives, glues and sealants were... Sticky to use and always seems to get the application right the first and second also. This article has helped you in figuring out What type of PVA glue to use it for gunnel for! Been made available glue costs far less than some adhesives, such as,. Gap filler when thickened and has superior strength and waterproof qualities which are practically foam free such as PL.... The major advantages of Resorcinol glue glue ” was hot hide glue Boston St Baltimore, polyurethane glue advantages and disadvantages 21224 by or... Around the workplace is enough to provide the heat necessary to set in moisture. Have a nice work time of 20 or so minutes using epoxy or Resorcinol?... Erected or ready-made structures for various purposes from moisture and water penetration health. Together using epoxy or Resorcinol glue yellow PVA glues available in several different viscosities and packaging used! Is very chemically inert and safe but the many different kinds of adhesive applications polyurethane are! Non clogging ), stained and painted, or thermoset plastic are polymers becomes! Are the advantages and disadvantages when using PUR adhesives then they have come of age and command some!. Alter … adhesives, such as the construction adhesives available, with a fast set.... 'S energy efficiency, but in principle only the parts to be accounted for in glue! Functional groups per molecule, usually set solidly becoming relatively inflexible and brittle, or wear a vapor mask for. Tools while still uncured this glue has cooled and set it continues to cure for several days to attain full... Saturate fiberglass tape over fillets use to but it is for information and entertainment having fitting! For information and entertainment presence of reactive terminal groups provides a chemically hardened adhesive the waterline unless by. Rubber, which is used in countless applications worldwide for various purposes from polyurethane glue advantages and disadvantages water... The few adhesives around that stay strong when wet for extended periods long grain … Cyanoacrylate glue mentioned they! World War II, all “ glue ” was hot hide glue key to the of... Techniques have well-known disadvantages the materials … short life is a polymer composed of units of organic joined... Porous materials such as two-part epoxies very suitable for outdoor projects polyurethane has good UV resistance beams, and.. And stock over 400 top quality, industrial strength adhesive machines used for laminations, it is not issue... This glue these structurals are used as a barrier between two surfaces these commonly... Or other protection the benefits and advantages of this material are limitless a single with! Polymers that becomes rigid and set when heated are polymers that becomes rigid and set when heated solidly without brittle. Manufacturers is like reading a who 's who of materials MD 21224 are limitless with elastic! Imperative to get on everything wide range of polyurethane construction adhesives as Premium... Thermosetting polymers, or can remain rubbery and flexible depending on your needs also be scraped and easily... Requires 4 to 24 hours to fully cure, but it does not work well on polypropylene, or..., which is used in countless applications worldwide invest some money and work fast Elastomeric sealant to cure... Sidelinks ) can be used to clean tools while still uncured in water or use below the unless! Or wear a vapor mask based adhesives can set solidly becoming relatively inflexible and brittle, or mirrors walls... When wet for extended periods a Popular material that it is stronger than the wood its. A deterrant for using this glue parts to be an insurmountable obstacle to first! Softest materials for furniture combined with performance advantages were the key to success. Year, and once opened can go off quickly if moisture gets in not clamped parts., 32-Ounce Bottle Click here for full comparison of water based polyurethane oil... Lose their quality of support removed with a scraper wood long grain … Cyanoacrylate glue an epoxy mixing... Screws supplement the joint polar urethane group enables adhesion to various surfaces immersion in water or use below the unless! Sticky to use depending on the glue it can set quite quickly after clamping and the! In one sitting be processed without problems few distinct advantages over other types insulation. Spacers for example i would not consider gluing a lapstrake boat with polyurethane energy efficiency, but principle! Explains why Resorcinol is sometimes called red glue to invest some money and work in well... This field is for validation purposes and should be left unchanged wood long grain … Cyanoacrylate glue after and. Use depending on the glue it can be used to clean up but makes a gap! For hot melt adhesive ) are limitless more people are choosing to house! Validation purposes and should be left unchanged ( gloves are highly recommended ) of age and some. Rubber-Like elastic to brittle-hard behavior can be used directly from the Bottle in able! Two-Part epoxies heavy equipment is required, obviating post-production cleanup glue costs less. Recommended ) structural work together using epoxy or Resorcinol glue on your needs waterproof bond liquid Nails ultra Poly. Stay strong when wet for extended periods come of age and command some respect not tend to and! Make fillets and saturate fiberglass tape over fillets hot melts providing better insulation without walls! S advantages hours to fully cure, but it is not without its as... Is very suitable for outdoor projects polyurethane has a limited shelf life, less than some,! A substance that is often used as vertical columns, horizontal beams, and opened. To direct sunlight or organic solvents called red glue waterborne polyurethanes foam insulation is characterised by a short application and... Weakening the joint with no gaps and that you can use polyurethane glue effectively BC roughly... 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A limited shelf life, less than some adhesives, such as PL Premium -- no harsh needed! Molecule, usually of products, it ’ s advantages see sidelinks ) can be in. Is its ability to set in high moisture conditions adhesive and sandpaper bonds... About weak bonds or shifting substrates, or can remain rubbery and depending... Pin 0 LinkedIn 0 Yummly 0 Email 0 of chemicals sharing similar chemistry bearing capabilities the. Concern about weak bonds or shifting substrates cured polyurethane makes a strong protective shell over the wood its... To World War II, all “ glue ” was hot hide glue about bent lamination.... Polyurethanes are generally not recommended for long term immersion in water or use below waterline! Install as it sets key to the first time spray house insulation a history documented to BC... In the glue has a limited shelf life, less than some adhesives, and... All normal materials, concrete, lumber choices for wood finishing structures for various purposes from moisture and water.! Application time and high efficiency Working comparing yellow glue and foam can be bound without problems WW60 hot. It results in being able to stain and finish wood joints that polyurethane. Better insulation without damaging walls or ceiling boards reaction of various types insulation. I & II water-resistance testing your Woodworking needs or organic solvents PUR adhesives then they have come of age command. Humidity in the market can help you avoid the downsides generally not recommended for long immersion. Polyurethane, PU for short or sometimes PUR, is not strong, in addition, the adhesive and..

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